Legionas, Laeral, and High Fells

Descriptions & discussions of member nations' flora & fauna.
Laeral
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Legionas, Laeral, and High Fells

Post by Laeral » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:47 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Bears Armed</dt><dd>Dec 2 2017, 03:17:49 PM</dd></dl><div>Now, Trees.
I don't know how much detail you're interested in considering on this point, but it would fit the theme for the Riverlands [at least] to have a species of Gingko and either the RL Dawn Redwood or a fairly close relative of this (but probably not the same species that's found in some parts of western Bears Armed [Mainland]), although both might -- as in RL China -- survive now only where they've been deliberately planted by people. Some other "interesting" conifers that occur in RL eastern Asia but are less familiar to Europeans & Americans are the Golden Larch, the [Japanese] Umbrella Pine (genus Sciadopitys, now limited to one species in Japan but prehistorically also occurring at least as far west as the shores of the Baltic Sea where it gave rise to that area's famous Amber deposits...), and genus Cryptomeria (the 'Japanese Cedar' or -- more rarely -- 'Chinese Cedar', cultivated in both Japan and China for so long that its wild origins have been lost...): Bears Armed [Mainland] has two species of Cryptomeria, either or both of which could also occur in parts of the former Antrium if you like the concept but don't want either to use the RL species or to invent any endemic ones of your own... We also have a species of coniferous shrub, in a related but endemic genus, whose bark can be processed to yield a spice with similar properties to Ginger...

:Bear: [/quote]I was not planning on going into much detail regarding trees in Laeral. I honestly don't know much about the subject- in fact, the species you mentioned were all new to me.

I'll note the 'Dawn Redwood' and 'Gingko' tree as being present in Laeral, with the note that in Laeral, the gingko is referred to as the 'maidenhair' tree (I saw the name on the Wikipedia page for Gingko as an archaic term for the tree).

The 'Golden Larch' looks very nice; I think I'll note it as one of the primary trees in Laeral. I'll also note the 'umbrella pine' and the 'Japanese cedar', although we'll need to find an Iduvian name for that last one. Would you mind telling me the names you used for the Bears Armed Cryptomeria trees?

I was planning on having a species similar to the 'Chinese Plum' (Prunus Mume) though, as the plum blossom (meihua) is a Learalian patriotic symbol which appears on our flag.

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Legionas, Laeral, and High Fells

Post by Bears Armed » Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:28 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Laeral</dt><dd>Dec 2 2017, 05:47:16 PM</dd></dl><div>I was not planning on going into much detail regarding trees in Laeral. I honestly don't know much about the subject- in fact, the species you mentioned were all new to me.

I'll note the 'Dawn Redwood' and 'Gingko' tree as being present in Laeral, with the note that in Laeral, the gingko is referred to as the 'maidenhair' tree (I saw the name on the Wikipedia page for Gingko as an archaic term for the tree).

The 'Golden Larch' looks very nice; I think I'll note it as one of the primary trees in Laeral. I'll also note the 'umbrella pine' and the 'Japanese cedar', although we'll need to find an Iduvian name for that last one. Would you mind telling me the names you used for the Bears Armed Cryptomeria trees?

I was planning on having a species similar to the 'Chinese Plum' (Prunus Mume) though, as the plum blossom (meihua) is a Learalian patriotic symbol which appears on our flag. [/quote]I don't know as much about trees as I do about animals, but came across some of these while deciding what Bears Armed would have in addition to the 'Redwood' whose presence I'd already made "necessary" by using it as a Clan's name.

In English, the Bears' names for the Cryptomeria species are the 'Noble Cedar' or 'Elegant Cedar' (which grows tall, and closely resembles the "wild" form of C. japonica) and the 'Laughing Cedar' (which bears a close resemblance to the RL 'spiralis' variety of cultivated C. japonica).
The related shrub from whose bark a ginger-like spice can be produced belongs to the IDU-endemic [& probably monotypic] genus Metacryptomeria and is known as the 'Effbush', with the spice as 'Effbark'. Thus, our counterpart of the RL [British] 'Ginger Beer' is called 'Effbark Ale'. The method for extracting that spice was kept secret within a small number of families, for several centuries, and one of those families actually adopted 'Effbark' as their surname: The most famous member of that family, however, earned his reputation in a different field instead... Active during the 'Bearroque' period, he was the brilliant musical composer Jay Effbark.
I can't provide Latin names for any of these species yet, or for the local species of Sciadopitys, because I still need to check on which forms the endings should take.

Sure, a Plum species is perfectly reasonable. You might have one or more species of Cherry, as well.

Also probably present, in the southern parts of Laeral: one or more species of Magnolia, and -- where they wouldn't be too badly overshadowed by trees -- one or more species of Bamboo... with the latter, of course, potentially providing useful material for numerous purposes. In the uplands closest to Malabra you might even have groves of the 'Puzzle-Pine' which -- instead of being a "true" Pine -- is actually quite a close relative of the RL 'Monkey-Puzzle' tree. Here in RL today that family has two species in South America but is otherwise restricted to the SW Pacific/Australasia/SE Asia regions: It was far more widespread in prehistory, however, with both the semi-precious 'Whitby Jet' [in the UK] and Arizona's 'Petrified Forest' being derived from trees of this general type... and in the IDU the ancestors of this one species, at least, also survived past the Cretaceous/Paleogene transition. The seeds, similar to large 'pine kernels', are a good food although collecting them is labour-intensive and supplies are limited.

Talking of foods, do farmers in your 'Riverlands' include Water Chestnuts (Eleocharis dulcis, or close relatives of this) among their crops?


:Bear:
Last edited by Bears Armed on Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Laeral
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Legionas, Laeral, and High Fells

Post by Laeral » Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:33 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Bears Armed</dt><dd>Dec 9 2017, 03:28:53 PM</dd></dl><div>I don't know as much about trees as I do about animals, but came across some of these while deciding what Bears Armed would have in addition to the 'Redwood' whose presence I'd already made "necessary" by using it as a Clan's name.

In English, the Bears' names for the Cryptomeria species are the 'Noble Cedar' or 'Elegant Cedar' (which grows tall, and closely resembles the "wild" form of C. japonica) and the 'Laughing Cedar' (which bears a close resemblance to the RL 'spiralis' variety of cultivated C. japonica).
The related shrub from whose bark a ginger-like spice can be produced belongs to the IDU-endemic [& probably monotypic] genus Metacryptomeria and is known as the 'Effbush', with the spice as 'Effbark'. Thus, our counterpart of the RL [British] 'Ginger Beer' is called 'Effbark Ale'. The method for extracting that spice was kept secret within a small number of families, for several centuries, and one of those families actually adopted 'Effbark' as their surname: The most famous member of that family, however, earned his reputation in a different field instead... Active during the 'Bearroque' period, he was the brilliant musical composer Jay Effbark.
I can't provide Latin names for any of these species yet, or for the local species of Sciadopitys, because I still need to check on which forms the endings should take.

Sure, a Plum species is perfectly reasonable. You might have one or more species of Cherry, as well.

Also probably present, in the southern parts of Laeral: one or more species of Magnolia, and -- where they wouldn't be too badly overshadowed by trees -- one or more species of Bamboo... with the latter, of course, potentially providing useful material for numerous purposes. In the uplands closest to Malabra you might even have groves of the 'Puzzle-Pine' which -- instead of being a "true" Pine -- is actually quite a close relative of the RL 'Monkey-Puzzle' tree. Here in RL today that family has two species in South America but is otherwise restricted to the SW Pacific/Australasia/SE Asia regions: It was far more widespread in prehistory, however, with both the semi-precious 'Whitby Jet' [in the UK] and Arizona's 'Petrified Forest' being derived from trees of this general type... and in the IDU the ancestors of this one species, at least, also survived past the Cretaceous/Paleogene transition. The seeds, similar to large 'pine kernels', are a good food although collecting them is labour-intensive and supplies are limited.

Talking of foods, do farmers in your 'Riverlands' include Water Chestnuts (Eleocharis dulcis, or close relatives of this) among their crops?


:Bear:
[/quote]Noble/Elegant/Laughing Cedar all sound good to me.

What does the 'effbush' look like? I'm not sure whether I want to include it or not- the 'tone' seems a little off to me.

I'll note the magnolia, bamboo, and puzzle-pine.

Yes, Laeralian farmers do harvest water chestnuts. Do you know what other crops would make sense to be grown in Laeral? I've been meaning to add more details about the various crops in Laeral's agriculture sector.

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Legionas, Laeral, and High Fells

Post by Bears Armed » Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:41 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Laeral</dt><dd>Dec 9 2017, 07:33:55 PM</dd></dl><div>Noble/Elegant/Laughing Cedar all sound good to me.

What does the 'effbush' look like? I'm not sure whether I want to include it or not- the 'tone' seems a little off to me.

I'll note the magnolia, bamboo, and puzzle-pine.

Yes, Laeralian farmers do harvest water chestnuts. Do you know what other crops would make sense to be grown in Laeral? I've been meaning to add more details about the various crops in Laeral's agriculture sector.[/quote]The name of the 'Laughing Cedar' actually comes from an incident in mainstream Ursine ['HeartWoods'] mythology which I suspect your nation's culture wouldn't share: This point might need more discussion. Perhaps your people have a name for this tree that simply reflects its shortness relative to the other Cryptomeria species present?

I admit to having invented the name of the Effbush so that I could make that joke about the composer Effbark, some while ago, but would probably have included the plant itself in B-A's flora anyway. I like ginger, and wanted to include something like it in the Bears' traditional cuisine which I'd already said included spicy "hot" stews, but real Ginger wouldn't grow in this nation's climate and the country's backstory already included a high level of isolation from the outside world right up until 2006AD (i.e. to around the date when, OOC, I created the nation...) which would have made obtaining a regular supply by trade difficult... Then I read that some conifers produce specialised chemicals in their bark &/or foliage to repel/deter insects & other herbivores, and remembered that some condiments we use in RL also originated as herbivore-deterrents (e.g. Capsaicin, in "hot" peppers; e.g.ii 'Mustard Oil' in both Mustard and Horseradish...), and this possibility occurred to me. The bush would probably look quite like a Juniper, generally speaking, but with cones rather than "berries" and with slightly thicker/"shaggier" bark.

The question about other crops grown in Laeral raises another interesting question: Did the Chinese cultural (& genetic?) influence here arrive via a piece of territory that was "torn" from a Reality with RL-like geography and re-shaped to fit into our map, or did that culture arise (in parallel to the RL one) on a version of the IDU's continents where East Asian parallels were a lot more widespread than they are in our shared version of the map today, or was Laeral actually colonised by settlers travelling from China [or a similar culture] at some stage during the centuries before the French also arrived there? The answer to this question, obviously, would affect the crops known there today.
Rice could potentially have been introduced into the southern Riverlands, although the climate would probably result in lower yields here than you'd get in southern China, and we already have a close counterpart to RL North America's "Wild Rice" (which can grow at least as far north as 'Asiatic' Rice, but produces smaller amounts of grain per [same area] than that does) in the region as well. I suspect that the main cereal crops in most of the country would be wheat & barley, especially after the French arrived: the northern parts of RL China also have some form of Millet grown, IIRC, but that's mainly in semi-arid areas and Laeral probably lacks wide enough expanses of those to make this crop likely here.
Also, possibly the French colonists introduced the cultivation of potatoes for their subjects -- if not they themselves -- to eat?
Soybeans and other legumes? Some kind of 'greens'? Flax and /or hemp for fibre?

We've already mentioned geese. I'd expect your farmers to also keep ducks (derived from the Mallard; very popular in RL China), chickens, pigs (which might even be turned loose in autumn, as in the traditional West European manner to forage on acorns & other wild foods in areas of woodland that aren't suitable for conversion into grain-fields)*, and possibly sheep or goats (in the hillier areas, useful not only for meat but for their wool as well... especially as I'm not sure how much silk a nation in Laeral's position could produce...). Oh, and in the Riverlands they probably farm at least one species of Carp as well. The traditional plough-drawing animal, in pre-modern times, might have been Water Buffalo in the southern Riverlands but would probably have been Oxen elsewhere. Bearing in mind Laeral's lack of widespread steppe & semi-desert regions [and nomadic peoples living in those] nearby, I suspect that domesticated horses would have been relatively rare, maybe even "unknown", until the French arrived.
The French might also have introduced Oats as an extra crop, for horse-fodder if for nothing else, if that was previously unknown in the country.

(* That reminds me, does Laeral's fauna include the Wild Boar?)
Last edited by Bears Armed on Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Laeral
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Legionas, Laeral, and High Fells

Post by Laeral » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:38 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Bears Armed</dt><dd>Dec 15 2017, 03:41:09 PM</dd></dl><div><blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Laeral</dt><dd>Dec 9 2017, 07:33:55 PM</dd></dl><div>Noble/Elegant/Laughing Cedar all sound good to me.

What does the 'effbush' look like? I'm not sure whether I want to include it or not- the 'tone' seems a little off to me.

I'll note the magnolia, bamboo, and puzzle-pine.

Yes, Laeralian farmers do harvest water chestnuts. Do you know what other crops would make sense to be grown in Laeral? I've been meaning to add more details about the various crops in Laeral's agriculture sector.[/quote]The name of the 'Laughing Cedar' actually comes from an incident in mainstream Ursine ['HeartWoods'] mythology which I suspect your nation's culture wouldn't share: This point might need more discussion. Perhaps your people have a name for this tree that simply reflects its shortness relative to the other Cryptomeria species present?

I admit to having invented the name of the Effbush so that I could make that joke about the composer Effbark, some while ago, but would probably have included the plant itself in B-A's flora anyway. I like ginger, and wanted to include something like it in the Bears' traditional cuisine which I'd already said included spicy "hot" stews, but real Ginger wouldn't grow in this nation's climate and the country's backstory already included a high level of isolation from the outside world right up until 2006AD (i.e. to around the date when, OOC, I created the nation...) which would have made obtaining a regular supply by trade difficult... Then I read that some conifers produce specialised chemicals in their bark &/or foliage to repel/deter insects & other herbivores, and remembered that some condiments we use in RL also originated as herbivore-deterrents (e.g. Capsaicin, in "hot" peppers; e.g.ii 'Mustard Oil' in both Mustard and Horseradish...), and this possibility occurred to me. The bush would probably look quite like a Juniper, generally speaking, but with cones rather than "berries" and with slightly thicker/"shaggier" bark.

The question about other crops grown in Laeral raises another interesting question: Did the Chinese cultural (& genetic?) influence here arrive via a piece of territory that was "torn" from a Reality with RL-like geography and re-shaped to fit into our map, or did that culture arise (in parallel to the RL one) on a version of the IDU's continents where East Asian parallels were a lot more widespread than they are in our shared version of the map today, or was Laeral actually colonised by settlers travelling from China [or a similar culture] at some stage during the centuries before the French also arrived there? The answer to this question, obviously, would affect the crops known there today.
Rice could potentially have been introduced into the southern Riverlands, although the climate would probably result in lower yields here than you'd get in southern China, and we already have a close counterpart to RL North America's "Wild Rice" (which can grow at least as far north as 'Asiatic' Rice, but produces smaller amounts of grain per [same area] than that does) in the region as well. I suspect that the main cereal crops in most of the country would be wheat & barley, especially after the French arrived: the northern parts of RL China also have some form of Millet grown, IIRC, but that's mainly in semi-arid areas and Laeral probably lacks wide enough expanses of those to make this crop likely here.
Also, possibly the French colonists introduced the cultivation of potatoes for their subjects -- if not they themselves -- to eat?
Soybeans and other legumes? Some kind of 'greens'? Flax and /or hemp for fibre?

We've already mentioned geese. I'd expect your farmers to also keep ducks (derived from the Mallard; very popular in RL China), chickens, pigs (which might even be turned loose in autumn, as in the traditional West European manner to forage on acorns & other wild foods in areas of woodland that aren't suitable for conversion into grain-fields)*, and possibly sheep or goats (in the hillier areas, useful not only for meat but for their wool as well... especially as I'm not sure how much silk a nation in Laeral's position could produce...). Oh, and in the Riverlands they probably farm at least one species of Carp as well. The traditional plough-drawing animal, in pre-modern times, might have been Water Buffalo in the southern Riverlands but would probably have been Oxen elsewhere. Bearing in mind Laeral's lack of widespread steppe & semi-desert regions [and nomadic peoples living in those] nearby, I suspect that domesticated horses would have been relatively rare, maybe even "unknown", until the French arrived.
The French might also have introduced Oats as an extra crop, for horse-fodder if for nothing else, if that was previously unknown in the country.

(* That reminds me, does Laeral's fauna include the Wild Boar?)[/quote]In that case, a name for the 'Laughing Cedar' could be the 'Petite' or 'Dwarf' Cedar.

Regarding ginger, the Effbush certainly sounds interesting, but I don't think it really fits my own conception of Laeral and Laeralian food. So we can jut say that the Effbush never reached as far as Laeral.

So regarding the origins of Laeralian culture- I've never been a fan of the 'parallel worlds develop similarly' theory, and I think that there are too many similarities to the real world (including culture, language, etc.) to make the idea that Laeralian culture spontaneously developed in the IDU feasible. The idea that Laeral was colonized sometime in the nation's prehistory is interesting. The thing is, what is the IDU's relation to real-life Earth? Laeralian history does include plenty of contact with other regions, including RL Earth (French colonization, languages, and even Laeral's status as a present-day member of the UN and various other real-world organizations). And colonization would explain why Laeralian culture and genetics are so different from Legionas' and Malabras'. Of course, I suppose there would be no way in character to tell. I also like the idea of Laeral being 'torn' from RL Earth, as well. So how about this: Laeral was once part of RL Earth, and so developed it's ecology from real-life species. When migrating groups of people from RL Earth moved to Laeral for the first time, they settled it, before being mysteriously transported to the IDU thousands of years ago. An unusually stable inter-regional 'portal' (I hate to use this word here, which is rather overused in my opinion, but I can't think of any good synonyms) remained between Laeral's location on RL Earth and it's new location in the IDU, allowing more humans to arrive occasionally, as well as a smaller number of RL species. However, no one realized the concept of inter-regional portals, instead believing them to still be on RL Earth. This portal remained stable for a long time, allowing the French and other colonial powers to arrive. The portal began to 'flicker' in the 1830s, which deprived the colonial regime of consistent support from home and allowed the Revolution to succeed, as well as allowing the independent government (the first Allied Provinces) to survive without interference from other hostile powers which would normally have seized the moment to invade the weak, fragile revolutionary government. The portal stabilized once again in the 1890s, meaning that Laeral and High Fells were drawn into real-world conflicts such as WWI, before flickering once again starting in the 1950s (after Laeral had joined the UN, but High Fells had not, planning to do so later on). he portal remained fragile until the 1990s, when Laeral began to reopen ties with the real-world. The portal remains somewhat stable to this day, although it is still cheaper and safer for Laeral to trade with other IDU nations rather than risk the vagaries of the erratic portal.

I've already established that rice is grown in the Riverlands region. I hadn't anticipated the possibility of being able to grow grains such as wheat and barley given that I've sated that Laeral has 'bad' soil (I haven't actually established what kinds of soil problems Laeral has, so any guidance on this would be helpful). So in addition to those crops, the French introduced potatoes (only to seem them wiped out in a frost or blight in the 1840s, leading to famine in the ensuing decades) , some legumes and green vegetables, and both flax and some hemp, which still both grow in Laeral and make up some of our textile exports.

Regarding meat, the geese, ducks, chickens, and sheep/goat all sound appropriate. Now, you've said that silk would be difficult to grow in Laeral. I've already established (in multiple places) that silk is one of our major exports, though, so is there any way that large quantities of silk could be grown here?

Carp, water buffalo, and oxen all work. Having horses be rare /nonexistent before the French arrived would also be a reason that the French were able to conquer Laeral so easily- their cavalry were damaging psychologically to the Ren population, and gave the French greater mobility. And it makes sense that the French would have introduced oats as well.

No, Laeral does not have wild boar.
Last edited by Laeral on Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Legionas, Laeral, and High Fells

Post by Bears Armed » Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:36 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Laeral</dt><dd>Dec 16 2017, 04:38:46 PM</dd></dl><div>In that case, a name for the 'Laughing Cedar' could be the 'Petite' or 'Dwarf' Cedar.

Regarding ginger, the Effbush certainly sounds interesting, but I don't think it really fits my own conception of Laeral and Laeralian food. So we can jut say that the Effbush never reached as far as Laeral.

So regarding the origins of Laeralian culture- I've never been a fan of the 'parallel worlds develop similarly' theory, and I think that there are too many similarities to the real world (including culture, language, etc.) to make the idea that Laeralian culture spontaneously developed in the IDU feasible. The idea that Laeral was colonized sometime in the nation's prehistory is interesting. The thing is, what is the IDU's relation to real-life Earth? Laeralian history does include plenty of contact with other regions, including RL Earth (French colonization, languages, and even Laeral's status as a present-day member of the UN and various other real-world organizations). And colonization would explain why Laeralian culture and genetics are so different from Legionas' and Malabras'. Of course, I suppose there would be no way in character to tell. I also like the idea of Laeral being 'torn' from RL Earth, as well. So how about this: Laeral was once part of RL Earth, and so developed it's ecology from real-life species. When migrating groups of people from RL Earth moved to Laeral for the first time, they settled it, before being mysteriously transported to the IDU thousands of years ago. An unusually stable inter-regional 'portal' (I hate to use this word here, which is rather overused in my opinion, but I can't think of any good synonyms) remained between Laeral's location on RL Earth and it's new location in the IDU, allowing more humans to arrive occasionally, as well as a smaller number of RL species. However, no one realized the concept of inter-regional portals, instead believing them to still be on RL Earth. This portal remained stable for a long time, allowing the French and other colonial powers to arrive. The portal began to 'flicker' in the 1830s, which deprived the colonial regime of consistent support from home and allowed the Revolution to succeed, as well as allowing the independent government (the first Allied Provinces) to survive without interference from other hostile powers which would normally have seized the moment to invade the weak, fragile revolutionary government. The portal stabilized once again in the 1890s, meaning that Laeral and High Fells were drawn into real-world conflicts such as WWI, before flickering once again starting in the 1950s (after Laeral had joined the UN, but High Fells had not, planning to do so later on). he portal remained fragile until the 1990s, when Laeral began to reopen ties with the real-world. The portal remains somewhat stable to this day, although it is still cheaper and safer for Laeral to trade with other IDU nations rather than risk the vagaries of the erratic portal.

I've already established that rice is grown in the Riverlands region. I hadn't anticipated the possibility of being able to grow grains such as wheat and barley given that I've sated that Laeral has 'bad' soil (I haven't actually established what kinds of soil problems Laeral has, so any guidance on this would be helpful). So in addition to those crops, the French introduced potatoes (only to seem them wiped out in a frost or blight in the 1840s, leading to famine in the ensuing decades) , some legumes and green vegetables, and both flax and some hemp, which still both grow in Laeral and make up some of our textile exports.

Regarding meat, the geese, ducks, chickens, and sheep/goat all sound appropriate. Now, you've said that silk would be difficult to grow in Laeral. I've already established (in multiple places) that silk is one of our major exports, though, so is there any way that large quantities of silk could be grown here?

Carp, water buffalo, and oxen all work. Having horses be rare /nonexistent before the French arrived would also be a reason that the French were able to conquer Laeral so easily- their cavalry were damaging psychologically to the Ren population, and gave the French greater mobility. And it makes sense that the French would have introduced oats as well.

No, Laeral does not have wild boar.[/quote]Okay, of course, re the Cedar's name.
Okay, re the range of the Effbush not extending into your nation (which maybeso gives urrs a potential trade item?) too.

The IDU's relationship to the 'real world'? Well, according to past decisions, despite the difference in continental outlines it's on an 'Earth' as far as matters such as astronomical location, planetary size, lengths of years & days, and so on, are concerned. Latitude-wise it's currently in the northern hemisphere, basically stretching from around 20 degrees North to somewhere around 60 degrees [or slightly further] North. Previous RP has presumed that it "overlapped" at least one Earth that was more like RP in the past, at least intermittently, allowing for species to spread from one to the other and then for various cultures to spread from the other world into ours at various dates... and the area of that 'RL Earth' involved has varied by enough that "early" Chinese appearing somehow in what is now Laeral and then French colonists arriving there by sea centuries later on would fit well enough. "Portal" is a term that's already been used, so that's fine too: In fact, some now-CTE'd nations here were also "historically" colonies belonging to various European nations. (Malabra's people, on the other paw [and since you mention them], are probably descended from a mixture of the region's Stone Age human occupants [proto-Amerinds?] with Bronze Age immigrants from somewhere in India & maybe also from the Middle East...) so I don't have any problems with your history.

Re the soil problems: I suppose that Laeral's bedrock could be mostly a 'shield' of old igneous rocks, with most of the potential nutrients already leached-out long ago, as is in RL the case for Australia, much of Africa, and large areas in both Fenno-Scandia and eastern Canada... although, of course, those areas all have climatic problems of one kind or another with crop-growing that Laeral wouldn't share... and, even so, where the growing season is adequate they do still manage to produce worthwhile crops in the sedimentary basins of some minor rivers as well as in whatever equivalents they have to your 'Riverlands'. Going by that, I'd certainly expect wheat and/or barley to be viable crops in at least some limited parts of your non-'Riverlands' provinces... and if they're not viable crops then how could High Fells, without a significant share of the Riverlands' rice production, have been able to maintain its existence as a separate nation?
There would almost certainly have been some types of both legumes & greens [& of onions, or related species, too] grown here even before the French colonists arrived, although the French probably introduced additional types as well.

Re the silk: Okay, we'll say that that the IDU has its own variety (or even species) of silkworms which is more cold-tolerant than the RL Chinese one. Note however, that the food plant for these (whether it's White Mulberry Trees, as in RL China, or something else) probably requires a more fertile soil than you've been presuming your non-Riverlands areas possesses...

'No' to Wild Boar? Have your people already eaten all of them, or at least all of those that weren't merged into your stocks of domesticated pigs?

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Legionas, Laeral, and High Fells

Post by Laeral » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:02 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Bears Armed</dt><dd>Dec 18 2017, 05:36:12 PM</dd></dl><div><blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Laeral</dt><dd>Dec 16 2017, 04:38:46 PM</dd></dl><div>In that case, a name for the 'Laughing Cedar' could be the 'Petite' or 'Dwarf' Cedar.

Regarding ginger, the Effbush certainly sounds interesting, but I don't think it really fits my own conception of Laeral and Laeralian food. So we can jut say that the Effbush never reached as far as Laeral.

So regarding the origins of Laeralian culture- I've never been a fan of the 'parallel worlds develop similarly' theory, and I think that there are too many similarities to the real world (including culture, language, etc.) to make the idea that Laeralian culture spontaneously developed in the IDU feasible. The idea that Laeral was colonized sometime in the nation's prehistory is interesting. The thing is, what is the IDU's relation to real-life Earth? Laeralian history does include plenty of contact with other regions, including RL Earth (French colonization, languages, and even Laeral's status as a present-day member of the UN and various other real-world organizations). And colonization would explain why Laeralian culture and genetics are so different from Legionas' and Malabras'. Of course, I suppose there would be no way in character to tell. I also like the idea of Laeral being 'torn' from RL Earth, as well. So how about this: Laeral was once part of RL Earth, and so developed it's ecology from real-life species. When migrating groups of people from RL Earth moved to Laeral for the first time, they settled it, before being mysteriously transported to the IDU thousands of years ago. An unusually stable inter-regional 'portal' (I hate to use this word here, which is rather overused in my opinion, but I can't think of any good synonyms) remained between Laeral's location on RL Earth and it's new location in the IDU, allowing more humans to arrive occasionally, as well as a smaller number of RL species. However, no one realized the concept of inter-regional portals, instead believing them to still be on RL Earth. This portal remained stable for a long time, allowing the French and other colonial powers to arrive. The portal began to 'flicker' in the 1830s, which deprived the colonial regime of consistent support from home and allowed the Revolution to succeed, as well as allowing the independent government (the first Allied Provinces) to survive without interference from other hostile powers which would normally have seized the moment to invade the weak, fragile revolutionary government. The portal stabilized once again in the 1890s, meaning that Laeral and High Fells were drawn into real-world conflicts such as WWI, before flickering once again starting in the 1950s (after Laeral had joined the UN, but High Fells had not, planning to do so later on). he portal remained fragile until the 1990s, when Laeral began to reopen ties with the real-world. The portal remains somewhat stable to this day, although it is still cheaper and safer for Laeral to trade with other IDU nations rather than risk the vagaries of the erratic portal.

I've already established that rice is grown in the Riverlands region. I hadn't anticipated the possibility of being able to grow grains such as wheat and barley given that I've sated that Laeral has 'bad' soil (I haven't actually established what kinds of soil problems Laeral has, so any guidance on this would be helpful). So in addition to those crops, the French introduced potatoes (only to seem them wiped out in a frost or blight in the 1840s, leading to famine in the ensuing decades) , some legumes and green vegetables, and both flax and some hemp, which still both grow in Laeral and make up some of our textile exports.

Regarding meat, the geese, ducks, chickens, and sheep/goat all sound appropriate. Now, you've said that silk would be difficult to grow in Laeral. I've already established (in multiple places) that silk is one of our major exports, though, so is there any way that large quantities of silk could be grown here?

Carp, water buffalo, and oxen all work. Having horses be rare /nonexistent before the French arrived would also be a reason that the French were able to conquer Laeral so easily- their cavalry were damaging psychologically to the Ren population, and gave the French greater mobility. And it makes sense that the French would have introduced oats as well.

No, Laeral does not have wild boar.[/quote]Okay, of course, re the Cedar's name.
Okay, re the range of the Effbush not extending into your nation (which maybeso gives urrs a potential trade item?) too.

The IDU's relationship to the 'real world'? Well, according to past decisions, despite the difference in continental outlines it's on an 'Earth' as far as matters such as astronomical location, planetary size, lengths of years & days, and so on, are concerned. Latitude-wise it's currently in the northern hemisphere, basically stretching from around 20 degrees North to somewhere around 60 degrees [or slightly further] North. Previous RP has presumed that it "overlapped" at least one Earth that was more like RP in the past, at least intermittently, allowing for species to spread from one to the other and then for various cultures to spread from the other world into ours at various dates... and the area of that 'RL Earth' involved has varied by enough that "early" Chinese appearing somehow in what is now Laeral and then French colonists arriving there by sea centuries later on would fit well enough. "Portal" is a term that's already been used, so that's fine too: In fact, some now-CTE'd nations here were also "historically" colonies belonging to various European nations. (Malabra's people, on the other paw [and since you mention them], are probably descended from a mixture of the region's Stone Age human occupants [proto-Amerinds?] with Bronze Age immigrants from somewhere in India & maybe also from the Middle East...) so I don't have any problems with your history.

Re the soil problems: I suppose that Laeral's bedrock could be mostly a 'shield' of old igneous rocks, with most of the potential nutrients already leached-out long ago, as is in RL the case for Australia, much of Africa, and large areas in both Fenno-Scandia and eastern Canada... although, of course, those areas all have climatic problems of one kind or another with crop-growing that Laeral wouldn't share... and, even so, where the growing season is adequate they do still manage to produce worthwhile crops in the sedimentary basins of some minor rivers as well as in whatever equivalents they have to your 'Riverlands'. Going by that, I'd certainly expect wheat and/or barley to be viable crops in at least some limited parts of your non-'Riverlands' provinces... and if they're not viable crops then how could High Fells, without a significant share of the Riverlands' rice production, have been able to maintain its existence as a separate nation?
There would almost certainly have been some types of both legumes & greens [& of onions, or related species, too] grown here even before the French colonists arrived, although the French probably introduced additional types as well.

Re the silk: Okay, we'll say that that the IDU has its own variety (or even species) of silkworms which is more cold-tolerant than the RL Chinese one. Note however, that the food plant for these (whether it's White Mulberry Trees, as in RL China, or something else) probably requires a more fertile soil than you've been presuming your non-Riverlands areas possesses...

'No' to Wild Boar? Have your people already eaten all of them, or at least all of those that weren't merged into your stocks of domesticated pigs?[/quote]Regarding the Effbush, you could certainly have Effbush products listed as one of Bears' exports when Verwood's trade proposal starts.

The astronomical, geographic, and cosmological information is very useful, and it's good to see that my explanation for the settling of Laeral works. It could be interesting to plot the location of the 'portals' to other regions (perhaps those we have embassies with, plus the RL world) on the regional map, as well.

Regarding Laeral's and High Fells' soil issues, I think that I may have made a mistake in explaining the scope of the soil issues in Laeral. Yes, the regions of Laeral away from the Riverlands are somewhat less fertile than the Riverlands themselves. However, this doesn't mean that areas not in the Riverlands are harsh deserts or completely unproductive. It's more that the majority of Laeral's crops are sourced from the Riverlands, and that the soil in non-Riverlands areas can't support certain crops, and isn't quite as fertile as it could be. The disparity between the Riverlands and other regions is more of a social issue than anything else, with the Riverlands being more developed and having a higher population and average income than other regions (in fact, around one-third of Laeral's population lives in the Riverlands provinces). So I think the 'shield' explanation works if we note that there aren't any of the climatic problems that prevent agriculture in say, the Australian outback. I just need an explanation for how some regions of Laeral would be more fertile than others. So wheat/barley can be grown in most parts of Laeral and High Fells. High Fells, meanwhile, has a much smaller population than Laeral (around ten million) and their diet features more meat than the Laeralian diet does, because there is more animal grazing there.

Your explanation about the silkworm works well, and given that the non-Riverlands soil is more fertile than you've been assuming, we can say that mulberry trees can, in fact, grow in most of Laeral, not just the Riverlands. Of course, the prevalence of mulberry trees could be an explanation for how Laeral can't yet provide all its own food. It's possible that farmers in places that could support silk production or agriculture choose to produce silk rather than food because silk commands higher prices- with the end result that Laeral has a lot of silk but not as much food as is desired.

Regarding the wild boar, I suppose they've been domesticated and/or hunted to extinction.

Bears Armed
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Legionas, Laeral, and High Fells

Post by Bears Armed » Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:59 pm

Noble Cedar = Cryptomeria nobilis.. or we might call it the 'Elegant Cedar', with the Latin name of C. elegans, instead: I still need to settle on one or the other of these two potential 'scientific' names.
The shorter 'Cedar' = C. spiralis
Effbush = Metacryptomeria officinalis
Umbrella-Pine = Sciadopitys orientalis (That's the species in Laeral, whereas in B.A. we have the related S. occidentalis instead...)

(Checked via the 'Latin Motto' thread in the NS forums' 'Gameplay' section.)
Last edited by Bears Armed on Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Laeral
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Legionas, Laeral, and High Fells

Post by Laeral » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:07 am

Are you intending to revive this thread?

Bears Armed
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Legionas, Laeral, and High Fells

Post by Bears Armed » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:04 pm

Yes; just very busy in RL at the moment...

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